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4th Edition Game
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DarkRexx
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Joined: 17 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's one of your DM's!

Okay, here's what you need to know about rules clarifications:

You can't split your move up unless you use a power that says you can.

As far as racial feats for 'monster' races, the reason I'm not going to allow you to take the normal races' feats in place, is because your racial powers are much better than the average racial powers, and also most of the racial feats simply enhance racial traits already possesed by the other races.

While I'm here, I'm gonna ask you all a favor.

PLEASE don't come to the table with a 'miniatures game' mentality. I know that Fourth Edition is a huge step away from what everyone is used to, especially in Bill's case, and that, yes, it definitley feels different, but if you come to the table with that mentality it is going to KILL the game for you. I promise to try my bestest to make a fun, enjoyable situation for everyone, and the world I have lovingingly been crafting since early third edition that we will be role-playing in is both a rich and creamy enviroment for character development.

We're going to have a good time. I stake my 10 years DM experience on it. :)
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Ashoka
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

DarkRexx wrote:
And here's one of your DM's!

Okay, here's what you need to know about rules clarifications:

You can't split your move up unless you use a power that says you can.

As far as racial feats for 'monster' races, the reason I'm not going to allow you to take the normal races' feats in place, is because your racial powers are much better than the average racial powers, and also most of the racial feats simply enhance racial traits already possesed by the other races.

While I'm here, I'm gonna ask you all a favor.

PLEASE don't come to the table with a 'miniatures game' mentality. I know that Fourth Edition is a huge step away from what everyone is used to, especially in Bill's case, and that, yes, it definitley feels different, but if you come to the table with that mentality it is going to KILL the game for you. I promise to try my bestest to make a fun, enjoyable situation for everyone, and the world I have lovingingly been crafting since early third edition that we will be role-playing in is both a rich and creamy enviroment for character development.

We're going to have a good time. I stake my 10 years DM experience on it. :)


Hey Mike,

Thanks for the post and the rules clarifications.

I think we're all very excited about the game. And I know I'm in it for a good story, not a "miniatures battle"--I think we're all just hashing out and asking about the combat rules, because we don't know the back-story of the campaign yet, so it is the easiest thing to discuss. I'd prefer not to be in massive combat all the time--kinda gets boring and we'd all just play Warhammer if we wanted that. :) I think we're all looking for a great story, good character development and adventure, nail-biting combat and a fun time all around.

Anyway, as for the move-rule--okay. As for the Racial Feats, okay, too, though I'm not sure if the PC Monster Racial abilities are really superior to the PC races in the PHB, especially races like the Eladrin, Dragonborn and Tieflings, but anyway, thanks for the clarification.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Razjah wrote:
Well, for the story of many characters, here is goes:

There was a battle between the Drow and Shadar-Kai over ruins that held great power. Both wanted that power and the territory. Jamie's goblin was a double agent between the Drow and Shadar-Kai. This led her to meet both Ajit's Drow and Griz's Shadar-Kai. My character was an elven long range scout who found this battle. It would have been good to report had my character not been in the wrong place at the wrong time, he was captured by the Drow.

The goblin saw how Griz's character did not want to follow in his father's footsteps and lead the war against Drow. While Ajit's character was becoming more and more disheartened with the Drow. Both wanted to leave the bloody traditions their people held.

Meanwhile my character was being held prisoner and tortured by the Drow. Ajit's character often spoke to my Elf about being an elf, leading your own life, and about how the Drow were wrong. When capable, he managed to keep the torture at bay or minimal.

This cumulated when the goblin helped the Shadar-Kai king's son (Griz's character) to flee with the now turned Warock (Ajit's character) with my character. The four fled the lands and lost the goblin (Jamie's character) in the process.

All this took place two years prior to our campaign and now the three are friends, having helped each other to survive in war torn lands for two years.

The goblin met a Dragonborn cleric of Bahumut (Bill's character) and his paladin brother (Begley's character) when something was chasing her. HSe hid behind the cleric and after he saved the goblin's life she refused to leave his side. Two years later he and his brother join and Elven ranger, Drow warlock, Shadar-Kai wizard.


Thus almost all of our characters have met and have people to vouch for them, such as the Drow being backed by a Goblin, Elf, Shadar-Kai when the Dragonborn freak upon first contact. If I missed anything feel free to post it.


Just to clarify on a few things here:

Neither the Shadar-Kai or the Drow settlements were kingdoms--we didn't want to mess with Mike's campaign/game world. I think we decided they were both more like towns/outposts that could reside within larger lands/kingdoms. So Griz's father was more like the highest ranking warlord/commander for the town, not a king and my PC was of no particular import--he was in a minor Drow House and had risen up to a 2nd or 3rd level Warlord and commanded a platoon or some such. However, when he became a Warlock, part of his Pact with the ancient Fey entities was that he had to allow them to absorb and consume his knowledge (ie his levels) in Warlord, starting him fresh as a Warlock. Hence his 1st level.

As for the disputed territory, it was over land/resources--additionally, there were some ancient ruins that were suspected to hold things of power or hidden knowledge/secrets, but our PCs cannot verify that; just a possible plot-hook for the future.

Jamie's Goblin conspired with my Drow and the Shadar-Kai Wizard to have their respective armies battle each other on a specific time/day--we fed them false info from both sides to lead them into said battle. While they were fighting, the Goblin, Drow, Shadar-Kai and the freed Elf escaped. By the time both sides figured out what had happened, we were on our way out. However, they sent patrols to chase us down and during that time, we got separated from the Goblin. The rest of us stuck together and over the course of two years, survived attacks from the Drow and the Shadar-Kai of those two towns, until we had finally fled far enough away that their agents weren't going to bother with us (yeah, we'd betrayed both cities, but we weren't worth that much effort.

I think that covers a lot of the general unified story between the characters.
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Razjah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I thought today was great. Our party is large, and by pretty much all standards, obscure, but it was fun. Even though we have 1 Drow 3 Dragonborn, 1 Shadar-Kai, 1 goblin, 1 Elf, 1 Eladrin, and 1 Half-Elf it was good.

Next week, I'll do more RP and less R-watching.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,

Great game. I really enjoyed it. We've got a fun and diverse group and hopefully, as we all get to know each other as players and as PCs, we'll really mesh. But so far so good as a start.

For Mike and Nick as DMs: Top 5 List

5) ...well run combat. Easy and fast paced and fun.

4) ...not too much combat. We didn't have to roll dice all day.

3) ...cool NPCs. Each of them seemed to have individual and real personalities. Not all clones.

2) ...the scene with the peasants who called us heroes and offered to give us their scant bag of money. That scene pulled at the heart-strings and made up for the jerk-Reeve. It was both a feel-good scene and a sad scene. And yes, a bit manipulative, too!

and the #1 moment for me...

...that you didn't railroad us, especially didn't railroad us into working for the Reeve. I hated the Reeve, but thought you were going to force me to have to work for him and go kill the Orcs without any other option and I was worried that I'd be forced to play completely Out of Character just to be in the adventure. The fact that you came up with a second Company to work with and another interesting rival Company leader was great. Been in too many games with bad DMs that force me to do things my PC would never do just to keep adventuring with the group.

So thanks! It was cool! And I am looking forward to the next game and for folks to get more into their characters and RP more!

Also, just so folks understand: Iraj (my Drow) isn't greedy. Or isn't obsessively greedy. As I was explaining it to a few of you, it is important for me to play by human motivations and I've always seem the major motivating forces to be stuff like: basic survival (food, shelter, etc), money, sex, power, fame, religion, etc. My character isn't all about getting a ton of money and magic items, etc, but I did want him to be firm about getting money for what they were doing, because they were facing mortal danger and could potentially die and I wanted a good reason for why he'd do it rather than just "Well, it's the game, so we gotta go kill monstes and get XP!" I mean, I've been in too many games were the PCs didn't have a rhyme or reason for why they went out to kill "monsters"--they just wanted to hack'n'slash.

I needed a solid in-character reason for why he'd go try and wipe out an entire Orc outpost and potentially get killed in the process. I mean, the Orcs aren't HIS enemy, per se (he got into a fight with them in the town, but in his mind, that is more a "wrong place/wrong time" thing), and he's against racial stereotyping, considering his own Drow background (he just doesn't fundamentally believe folks are pure evil or good--just have different agendas that may or may not be in conflict with him), and while he didn't like the Orcs, he wasn't about to go chasing down an Orc outpost out of the blue for no particular reason. The money was the biggest motivating factor.

I hope that makes sense--when other issues come up, he'll play to them too--like sex (if he ever finds a NPC attractive), power (he might get into politics), fame (not sure if he wants this, actually), or religion (he's got firm religious views of his own).

Anywaaay, just wanted to clarify.
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DarkRexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Nick and I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks!
Anyone else who has any suggestions or anything like that can feel free to post here.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we need Jamie to post her notes and recap on here!
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Razjah
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

She doesn't have Internet access very often, but I'll tell her to psot the notes she has.
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Ir0nSide
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it to late to join?
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Razjah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't know.
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DarkRexx
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is, no, it's not too late.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: On The Subject of Feats Reply with quote

Mike, I've got to bring this subject up again, because we've just gained a new level and I was looking over the Feats:

Can the Monster Races get Racial Feats, please?

The initial argument that the Monster Races are better than the PHB Races just isn't true: 4E designed the races to be mostly equal, and certainly one can't argue that the Drow or Goblins are any better than the Tieflings, Dragonborn or Eladrin. Just look at their Racial powers versus the Monster Racial Powers. It's not like 2nd Ed where Drow had automatic Magic Resistence and all that crazy stuff.

Moreover, in practical terms, as a Drow, I've yet to actually use any of Racial Powers, whereas they've certainly come into play for the other characters: Dragonborn Breath, +s to hit for the Eladrin with his sword, etc. This may or may not change, but thus far, I haven't seen the whopping advantage of the Drow and when you add the fact that in the campaign the Drow have some sort of automatic racial hatred towards them by all the races of the world--despite being a high charisma character--any minimal perceived advantage is immediately neutralized by such a glaring and massive disadvantage.

The coolness of the Drow is only a player perception as a holdover from the Drizzt books--they have none of the "coolness" of a Drow in the game, but all the disadvantages.

Even if, somehow, there were advantages to the Monster Races that the PC Races didn't have, it does not equal lacking access to 3 Feats in the Heroic Tier section: All the PC Races have access to 3 more Feats than the Monster Races. That's a big difference in flexibility; as we level up, the Monster Races will continue to be hemmed into a select few Feats.

This will only get worse in the long run, once we eventually hit Paragon levels, and Epic levels.

Jamie and I, and Gris(If he comes back), will be down a number of Feat options compared to the rest of the party. I know this sounds like whining, but you asked us what we wanted to see: I'd like to see Feats tailored for the Monster Races so that we don't feel like the redheaded stepchildren of the game.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm on the topic of racial inequality, can Drow PCs get something to make up for the fact that they are the ONLY Monster Race that seems to be universally feared/hated in the game?

I mean, if it is only going to be the Drow that faces prejudice and fear of the Monster Races, etc, can Drow PCs get a +4 or +6 to their Intimidate rolls, instead of +2 (which just makes them equal to the other Races in Racial bonuses)? When the whole world automatically views you with distrust/fear, to the point where it becomes a real issue in gameplay, then it'd be nice to get some bonuses to balance it out.
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Razjah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

The hunting dog and sheep will love you!

Seriously, I do see your point. The fact that you really can't play as a Drow at all, since you must hide who you are, does kind of kill the fun in it. I would be okay with you getting some nice boost to intimidate. Hell Drizzt even used his heritage to intimidate when he needed to, why shouldn't a neutral character have the same capability?

Ajit, do you have the last vial of poison? If you don't then I think we lost a vial of uber poison.
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Ashoka
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Razjah wrote:
The hunting dog and sheep will love you!

Seriously, I do see your point. The fact that you really can't play as a Drow at all, since you must hide who you are, does kind of kill the fun in it. I would be okay with you getting some nice boost to intimidate. Hell Drizzt even used his heritage to intimidate when he needed to, why shouldn't a neutral character have the same capability?

Ajit, do you have the last vial of poison? If you don't then I think we lost a vial of uber poison.


I do. You have one, Jamie has one and I have the last one. However, I thought about it and Iraj would give the last vial of poison to your character, considering their friendship and because really, you'd be more likely to use it on your arrows than I would be on my dagger. So consider it given to you--you have it.
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